New here...Based on what I've read so far, their study of the evidence and insight into the mind of JM was stunning.  Stunning.   Yes, indeed, I can see this happening: " Bob Stevenson has noted several times that he and Freddy thought the spark igniting the murders was MacDonald being caught molesting one of his daughters."



 

New and may not have all the information correct but it's my understanding that JM himself has always maintained it was Kristen, the two-year-old toddler (she was not wearing a night-time pull-up, a diaper of some sort?), not little girl Kimberley, who wet the bed.

I've read Freddy Kassab's theory on all this, one arrived at after intense/intense analysis of the entire horror, that Colette caught JM molesting Kimberley, that it was this child who was in the bed.  Yes, I can see how a revelation/a bringing-to-light of such deviant behavior, the fear that such a revelation would be made public, etc. could send a person with an extreme naricissitic personality disorder into a most extreme rage, enraged and terrified that his false public image which he had cultivated was going to be shattered to bits.  Shattered to bits.  

Likely, JM had been sleep-deprived many, many times in his life.  Was accustomed to it.   And having two young children, he wasn't new to bed-wetting.  Both situations likely occurring simultaneously enough times that it was nothing new to him.

 

Last edited by JPhoenix778 (10/21/2020 3:26 pm)

JPhoenix778 said -  New and may not have all the information correct but it's my understanding that JM himself has always maintained it was Kristen, the two-year-old toddler (she was not wearing a night-time pull-up, a diaper of some sort?), not little girl Kimberly, who wet the bed.

First of all, just because JRM always maintained something, does not mean it is true.  We might wonder why he would maintain that. He forcefully denied during the April 6th, 1970 interrogation that Kimmy had been in the bedroom. But at that time, he did not know that each family member had a different blood type, which allowed the investigators to identify each bloodstain.  A large bloodstain on the bedroom floor as well as splatter on the wall were identified as Kimmy's blood type. And the urine stain was also from a person of her blood type.

His strategy in that interview was to create a parallel story of what happened that night. He knew what really happened, but he told a fake story of a perfectly normal night, until he was awakened by a roving band of drug crazed murderous hippies.

It was important to keep the two stories separate in his head, so he did not want to place Kimmy (the 5 year old) in the bedroom.

He may have been embarrassed that his 5 year old was still occasionally wetting the bed. Colette had mentioned the issue of a 5 year old wetting the bed in a question during her child psychology class that very night. This is likely the spark that started the fight, so he did not want to go anywhere near it in the interview. So he replaced Kimmy with Kristy (2 years 9 months old).

A 2 year old wetting the bed is less embarrassing, and is less likely to be the spark that caused an explosion of rage.

What he didn't anticipate is that due to different blood types they were able to identify the wet urine spot as belonging to the 5 year old.

But once he had committed to his story of which girl had wet the bed, he did not want to change it. So he continued to insist it was Kristen, and accused the investigators of incompetence.

Not sure about your pull-up comment.  Most parents still used cloth diapers in 1970, and toddlers were toilet trained much earlier than they are today. Most 2 year olds were no longer in diapers, and there really wasn't any pull-up diaper on the market.

But it wasn't unusual for toddlers to wet the bed, so JRM went with that story to explain the urine stain in the master bedroom. Not realizing the investigators would know he was lying.

Last edited by Grandfather (10/21/2020 8:09 am)

Very well stated. I believe you are entirely correct. I had never before considered that the attack on Kimmie was deliberate, but you make a good argument that it was deliberate. It breaks my heart, again.

I also agree about the alleged molestation. Collette was far too good a Mother. She was the true hero in that house. She and the girls would have been packed and gone.

I do believe that Kristy was alive when a badly injured Collette went to protect her.  I believe MacDonald was in the living room crying (for himself, as a neighbor heard) and reading the Esquire magazine. He thought he had a perfect plan and went to kill Kristy, only to find Collette there. He flew into another rage, at having his plans interfered with, and attacked Collette again. Kristy was probably frozen with terror as MacDonald finished killing her Mother, who was protecting her, and then killed her. MacDonald then carried Collette back to the master bedroom, leaving the bloody foot print. What a nightmare!

MacDonald, by his own admission, is a liar, thief, and serial adulterer. I think it is obvious he is also a family annihilator and a monster. In his mind, he was merely removing impediments to the happy unencumbered life that he craved. That horrible night it all came to a head and he went berserk. And then, his sick mind and an Esquire magazine article, made him believe he could be a hero and perpetrate a perfect crime. He was wrong.

Kudos again, byn63.

byn63 wrote:

Spifflog wrote:

I’m a bit perplexed on one minor aspect of this case.  Bob Stevenson has noted several times that he and Freddy thought the spark igniting the murders was MacDonald being caught molesting one of his daughters.

I do not now or have I ever believed Freddy's theory of inmate molesting his daughters.  I do believe that he might have been physically abusive to Kimmie and to Colette.

Kimmie had told her school bus driver that she had a mean daddy and from what I've read and heard inmate blamed Colette and Kimmie for his being made to marry.  In my opinion (and as my father always termed it when speaking of someone getting pregnant when not married) inmate thought he "was just poking fun and Colette took it serious"....in other words, inmate conveniently ignores his part in creating the situation.  Colette got pregnant and Kimmie being on the way caused inmate to lose his swinging carefree lifestyle.  Not that it stopped him from dropping trou at every opportunity.

Spifflog wrote:

Also, I don’t think the time line matches.  If Colette has been killed in her street cloths, I could understand that she came home and saw the molestation taking place and a fight ensured.  But she was in her pajamas.  I suppose the argument would be that she came home, changed, and then talked to Kimberly, learned what had happened and the fight began, but that seems like a stretch.

I do not believe the timeline or story tracks.  IF she had come home and found inmate molesting either of the children she would have fought him tooth and nail and done everything to get those girls out of the apartment.  And yes, she would not have changed calmly into her pajamas no way in hell a mother would do that after catching him molesting her babies!!!!!

what I think happened:
Colette was taking her hair down and Kimmie was asleep on the master bed.  inmate came in to go to bed and found Kimmie and a huge wet spot where she had wet herself and the bed.  Inmate, in my opinion, started yelling at Colette to change the sheets to which she replied if you are in such a rush do it yourself.  I believe he yanked Kimmie off the bed and "tossed her aside" and I believe Colette hit him in the forehead with her hair brush (causing the mild abrasion there), I think he grabbed her, punched her in the face, she grabbed the pj top and pulled the pocket off, while struggling she again reached for the top and as he twisted away the top tore, ripping through her blood stains that were all over it...The wooded club was being used to prop up the broken foot of the bed and he grabbed it and started swinging.

I also DO NOT believe that he hit Kimmie accidentally.  the damage done to that poor little face/head was not from an accidental backswing.  I believe inmate lined up and used Kimmie's head as a baseball and he was swinging for the fence.  Her entire facial midline was dislocated and her cheekbone was broken and forced out through the skin of her face.  Also, I do not believe Kristy ever got out of bed AND I believe she was dead before Colette went to her room.  There is no evidence that she moved at all but if she'd been alive and her mother's body had landed on her she'd have attempted to get out from under the weight.

So, that is what I think....

Last edited by TexasPoet (10/24/2020 7:45 pm)

JPhoenix778 wrote:

TexasPoet, 

Have wondered about that...what did the neighbors hear?  

Mrs. Kalin, the next-door neighbor, testified during the 1974 grand jury proceeding that in the early morning hours of February 17, 1970, "I came out of a deep sleep and heard Colette's voice . . . and it woke me up. The voice I heard was mad enough to kill." She was not able to distinguish the words, but said, "I got the gist of it, and I would swear on the Bible that it that what what it was like she was saying was, 'What do you think I'm going to be doing, while you are doing all of this? Do you think I am going to be standing here doing nothing? If you touch one hair of those children's head or my head, I'll kill you!