OrangeTangerine - Welcome to our discussions!  We always like when new people join IF they truly want to discuss the case.  Read and ask and you will get answers!  I am sorry to say that some of our stuff was lost when other boards had issues or were closed down without giving us a chance to salvage things but there is still a lot here!

OrangeTangerine wrote:

I think he and Colette got into an argument about the wet bed, and it escalated. I think, at some point, Colette hit him with her hairbrush, and he picked up the piece of wood to swing it at her and accidentally hit Kimberley. I don't think he meant to kill until Kimmie was hit. Then, I think he realized her wounds were fatal, so he decided to kill Kristen and Colette, too. I do think he cried, not out of grief for his family, but for himself. Then, I think he cooked up the hippie intruder story and wounded himself.

I agree that inmate and Colette argued over the wet bed.  I believe inmate ordered Colette to change the sheets while she was brushing her hair and getting ready for bed.  I think Colette then told inmate that if he was in such a hurry he could change the sheets himself and the fight was on!

I DO NOT believe nor will I ever believe that he accidentally hit Kimmie.  The damage done to that poor babies head/face was too severe to have been accidental.  The entire midline of her face was dislocated and her cheekbone was broken and forced through her skin.  (autopsy photo shows the torn and gaping skin on her face).  Kimmie was sent into an unrecoverable coma and laid bleeding for long enough to have created a full thickness, 6" soaking stain on the master bedroom carpet.

I also believe that Kristen was dead before Colette regained consciousness and stumbled into the other bedroom.  WE KNOW that Colette was beaten on top of Kristen, yet there are no signs mentioned that indicate Kristen tried to get out of bed and/or out from under her mother's body.  My gut says that people wish to BELIEVE that inmate had some compassion (limited but some) because it is so hard to believe a father would do what inmate did.....but FACTS say he is a narcissistic sociopathic familial slaughterer.

I do not believe you have any reason to be ashamed....not of his romantic interest in you, not in your NAIVE (not stupid) hopes that he'd be truthful, and certainly not for believing him guilty and not telling him you thought so.....you were his friend (friend doesn't mean blindly believing everything they tell you).

 

Welcome to the discussion Orange Tangerine, your perspective from your personal relationship with inmate is facinating and adds a lot to the discussion!You'll find this is a very respectful group of people who have a great wea
lth of knowledge about this heartbreaking crime.  Christina's generous sharing of all the factual information/documentation of all the legal actions in this case, as well as her general deep knowledge of every aspect of it have been invaluable over the years in helping to keep the focus of the case on the only victims of inmate,the beautiful, innocent family that he slaughtered, as well as the friends and family who loved them.  Making the voluminous documentation pertaining to this case available to anyone searching for facts and the truth about it, has gone a very LONG way in showing what a truly reprehensible,inhuman monster inmate macdonald is, despite all of the propaganda his clueless supporters want people to believe in their horrific attempts to make HIM appear to be the victim here.I found this case through my general fasination with true crime books, and like countless others who have followed this case through the years, it was through reading Fatal Vision that i learned of jeffrey  macdonald and the horrific crime he committed.  Since then i've followed the case and read everything i could find about it, and have found message boards like this one to be very helpful in keeping up to date with the latest news about it, all in the belief that macdonald should NEVER again walk this earth as a free man.It is my fervent belief after all of the research that ive done since first learning of his crimes that he DESERVES  to die in prison,the sooner the better.

Last edited by Luminol (10/21/2019 1:56 am)

snoopy wrote:

OrangeTangerine wrote:

I didn't know much about this case until the 1990s. I was looking for something to read, and someone suggested Fatal Vision. I read it and was really engrossed in it. Not long after, I saw a rerun of the movie with Gary Cole, I think, as MacDonald. I thought he was guilty, but I thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. I wrote to him, and surprisingly, he wrote back fairly quickly. We corresponded about twice a week, and he called me almost every day. Not quite, but almost. He was in Oregon at the time, Sheridan, I think.

I am a little ashamed to admit that when he became romantically interested in me, I went along with it. I was young and foolish, and I had this idea that if we became close, he'd tell me the truth. Well, he really didn't want to discuss the murders with me, but he did want to discuss his case, all the things his attorneys were doing, etc. During the years we were writing, he was interviewed on TV several times, and he'd always call me before and ask me to watch, then he'd call me after and ask me what I thought. One time, he called me after a TV interview, but couldn't talk long because he said he had to get back to mopping floors!

I knew, at the time, that Lucia Bartoli was his researcher, and Fred Bost, who called me several times, told me Lucia was romantically interested in him. I do remember one photo of Lucia and Jeff with Jerry Potter and his wife. I never had any contact with Lucia or any of his supporters in any way except Fred and Jerry, who I spoke with on the phone a few times. I never had any contact with any of his attorneys or with Mr. Blackburn or Mr. Murtagh.

Mac went heavy on the romance. He asked me to move close to Sheridan. I actually began to feel a little guilty because I didn't really love him, and he would tell me he loved me. I had read about his reputation as a womanizer, and I didn't know, but thought, he was probably writing to several women. However, even though I felt him guilty, he always seemed very truthful with me. He would talk to me about some of his problems in the prison and even his problems with some of the women who wrote him. He even sent me some of their letters and asked for advice. Whenever I'd feel guilty about not being upfront with him, I'd think of the family he almost certainly killed, and I didn't feel so guilty any longer. Being so young, I still stupidly thought I could get him to tell me the truth of what happened that night. I wasn't looking for celebrity or money or writing a book or anything like that. I simply wanted to know what happened. I was curious and sad for the victims.

Eventually, he told me he wanted to get married. Well, I wasn't about to marry a man in prison, and he finally begged me to do it because he loved me (I doubt he did) and it would "look good." He'd have ties to a family and a community. People would see he could be faithful to one woman. I didn't see how that would be difficult with him in prison!

To make a long story shorter, because I wouldn't marry him, we started writing less and less, but we still remained friends, although I really wasn't his friend, was I, when I had come to believe him guilty but didn't tell him such. Oh, full disclosure, I did meet with Joe McGinniss several times, and talking with him made me more certain of Mac's guilt.

We drifted apart, and I stopped paying much attention to the case, but I became interested again when I learned he had applied for parole and had been denied. I was glad to find this board because it seems almost no one discusses the case any longer, and I have a lot of catching up to do. I wasn't at all surprised to discover he'd gotten married because he'd asked me to marry him in the 1990s.

I am convinced of his guilt now. He was always polite, sometimes overly so, to me, but he did seem to want to be in control of the relationship all the time. He talked to me of Melinda Stephens and wrote to me about her and her jealousy. He said he couldn't stand that and would never put up with it again, not that I ever showed any jealousy. I found him interesting and intelligent, but I'm not defending him in any way! I also came to believe he did murder his family, and there could be no defense, none at all unless he was insane, and he wasn't, for that. I knew, as interesting and intelligent as he was, he was a man who could become a monster.

Writing and talking to him for years, I think he and Colette got into an argument about the wet bed, and it escalated. I think, at some point, Colette hit him with her hairbrush, and he picked up the piece of wood to swing it at her and accidentally hit Kimberley. I don't think he meant to kill until Kimmie was hit. Then, I think he realized her wounds were fatal, so he decided to kill Kristen and Colette, too. I do think he cried, not out of grief for his family, but for himself. Then, I think he cooked up the hippie intruder story and wounded himself.

I hope I'll still be welcome on this board because so much has happened in the years when I wasn't following the case, and I'd like to catch up, and all of you seem so knowledgeable. As I said, I have lost track. I knew he was trying to get a new trial and had been turned down a lot. I know he's going to be up for parole again before too long, and personally, I believe he'll try to get a Compassionate Release based on his continuing health problems. I'm a very compassionate person, but my compassion in this case has to be extended to the four victims and those who love them. I think Mac should stay in prison until the end of his life. Actually, I think he's better off there. I don't think Kathryn could stand him and his controlling ways, and I don't think he could stand her sloppiness or her lies. For a liar, probably a psychopathic one, he's very big on others telling the truth. 

I did visit him several times when I was living in Los Angeles. That would take another post to describe. Believe me. But nothing outlandish. There were rules. Nothing sexual went on! Just a discreet and quick kiss. (I kind of hate myself now when I think of that.)

I seem to have had a lot more contact with him than some, so if anyone wants to ask me anything about his demeanor, etc., I'll be glad to answer. I really wasn't that involved in his defense. Mine was more a personal relationship. I do know about the case, but not all the ins and outs some of you know. I'm hoping to learn from you. Maybe some of you have a low opinion of me for not telling him immediately when I made the transition from questioning his guilty to believing him guilty, and I can only say I was young and probably stupid and ask forgiveness.

Thanks for sharing all of this with us and let me also welcome you to the discussion. This is a great place for discussing the case and you can learn a lot of information. 
 

Thank you, Snoopy and all others who welcomed me. Thank you, Christina for being so diligent and accumulating all the documentation you did so people can make an informed opinion. That has to be a very, very time consuming job. I couldn't do it. So, thank you. Thanks to all of you.

I did know a lot of women wrote to him, he made no secret of that, and he wrote and called some of them. He did send me some letters from other women, mostly asking me for advice on what to say to them. Apparently, there were some he wanted to write to, but wanted to keep it on a "friends only" basis because he wasn't interested in them in any other way, but he still wanted to be admired. He liked getting letters from women who admired him and said they believed him innocent. He liked to recruit a lot of women to help in his case or at least give the appearance of helping. I don't think all of them did. I didn't want involved in his case, though it was interesting hearing him talk about it. He never mentioned a woman in a trailer park to me or any woman who was different from her picture. Jeff had no compunction about writing to older women, though. Appearances didn't seem to matter too much with him when he was attempting to garner followers. A lot of not-so-good-looking women wrote to Jeff. (Look who he married the second time! LOL. Apparently being not-so-good-looking and a criminal didn't bother him, either.) A lot of overweight women wrote Jeff. He seemed more concerned about their health than their looks. He wanted to know how to tell them to reduce for their health without offending them. At least he told me he did. Naturally, I didn't have access to his mailing list. He said they were just friends, but I assumed, from what I'd heard about him, that he was writing romantic letters to at least some of them. Not too many, though, because he really didn't have a lot of free time. He had a lot of work to do in the prison, and he was always trying to figure out a way to get out or get his "innocence" reviewed on some TV show. At one point, he was even writing a screenplay of how the investigators got the whole thing wrong. I think it was based on Fred and Jerry's book, but I'm not sure. Jerry once told me if Lucia ever found out Jeff was writing romantic letters to anyone, she'd drop him in a second, but I never spoke with Lucia myself. I do know she was expecting to marry Jeff, though, if he ever got out, but Jeff would have just dropped her. He said there was "too much water under the bridge" for that to go anywhere. I do think he called her daily, though, because he wanted her to keep doing research.

He talked about Melinda Stephens some. I never spoke with her myself. I think she was before my time. Anyway, Jeff said she was in love with him, but he could never return the affection because she was extremely jealous and demanded he not write to or call other women. I think he liked her otherwise. He always said he was very cautious because Randi betrayed him. He seemed to have a lot of animosity for both Melinda and Randi, but he just cut people out of his life when he was done with them. He didn't bicker. He talked about Joe McG a lot. Felt really, really betrayed by him, too. I did speak with and meet Joe, and I really, really liked him. He became a good friend, and he is the one person who knew about my conversations with Jeff. There was another woman in NC that he considered a good friend, who was involved in his case, and they had a terribly bitter falling out because she wasn't being totally truthful with Jeff. Jeff said she was mentally ill and didn't share that with him. He said he could never have another casual conversation with her, but he didn't want to have an argument with her, so he asked my advice on how to cut her out of his life without her going ballistic because she was involved in his case. I know they did have a terrible falling out despite his wishes. I know Jeff simply called her and confronted her with the information. He sent me a whole pack of her letters to him, which were pretty romantic. She really wanted to visit him in Sheridan, but he always said no. She was married. She wasn't good looking, but she was extremely thin and didn't live in a trailer park.

He was usually very formal with people and overly polite, so I was surprised when he told me he couldn't stand Harvey Silverglate. He said he was a "bizarre" character, who would go walking with his wife in Central Park in the summer heat all bundled up in winter coats and boots. Harvey was working pro bono, though, so I don't think Jeff ever made any waves.

The only person he ever belittled for being overweight was Blackburn. There was a photo in a NC newspaper after Blackburn's arrest, and he looked quite overweight at the time, and Jeff did belittle him for that and for stealing from his law firm. I've seen more recent photos of Mr. Blackburn, and he seems quite slim to me and pretty good looking, but Jeff sent me the newspaper photo, and he was overweight when he went to prison. Didn't look anything at all like he looks now. I think Jeff just hated him because he was one of the attorneys who got him convicted. Like I said, I know he wrote to a lot of overweight women and women who weren't especially attractive, so I don't know why a man's weight would bother him unless it was just a chance to pick on Blackburn.

Jeff never asked me for money. I know some women would send him money, but he didn't talk to me much about where his money came from, and I didn't ask those questions, not wanting to push the envelope. He must have had money because he offered to finance my move from Los Angeles to Sheridan if I'd move. Even offered to pay a year's rent on a townhouse for me. I told him I did not want to leave LA. I loved the sunshine. I had a good life there. That was a major sticking point between him and me because Jeff usually got what he wanted, especially from women.

I've read that some people think Jeff might be bisexual. I don't think that at all. I don't think he respects or loves any woman, certainly not his current wife. I feel quite sure he's not interested in men, though. Jeff is a huge narcissist, and the only person he is capable of loving, in my opinion, is himself. I do have to wonder if diet pills played into the murders, though, because I can't see the rational Jeff doing anything to harm his then squeaky clean image of being the "golden boy." That is what was important to him. Not Colette, not his children, not other women, just his image. He must be absolutely mortified by his wife's criminal activities. I'm sure he is. I have my doubts about them even talking to each other and seeing each other now. Jeff would cut a person out of his life for the smallest thing, like giving him the wrong weather report, so imagine how he feels about Kathryn's bad publicity and criminal activity.

Last edited by OrangeTangerine (11/08/2019 7:15 am)

There was another woman in NC that he considered a good friend, who was involved in his case, and they had a terribly bitter falling out because she wasn't being totally truthful with Jeff. Jeff said she was mentally ill and didn't share that with him. He said he could never have another casual conversation with her, but he didn't want to have an argument with her, so he asked my advice on how to cut her out of his life without her going ballistic because she was involved in his case. I know they did have a terrible falling out despite his wishes. I know Jeff simply called her and confronted her with the information. He sent me a whole pack of her letters to him, which were pretty romantic. 

I've only ever heard of 1 COUPLE from NC that was at any time involved with inmate's case.  It was  a husband and wife pair that both wrote to inmate.  Neither the husband nor the wife wanted to be romantic with inmate but they did at one time believe inmate was innocent.  The pair did have a "falling out" of sorts, but not via telephone and not with inmate directly.  Now, neither member of the couple believe inmate to be innocent. 

Any other women from NC or anywhere else that wrote to inmate were NOT involved with inmate's case.  There is plenty of documentation showing affidavits and who offered them to inmate at any time during the course of the years.  I believe you have your facts very wrong on that alleged romance and fight.